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RE: What is the future of CVE - Scope, Volume & Quality?



Folks,

Mark and Kent have both raised interesting questions, which I'll try to address briefly below. But the primary point of this note is to drive focus of the discussion to the twin questions of scope of information sources and vendor/product coverage.  We really believe that before any other issue can be addressed adequately, the Editorial Board needs to come to agreement on these 2 questions.

First, let me attempt to address the 2 interesting issues in the hopes of quickly setting them aside.

RESOURCES
==========
Mark asked:
>It seems to me that the resource issue is a problem at the moment; for
>example we are building up a steady backlog of CNA allocated issues that
>are not yet in CVE (over 300 issues).  Are there ways you can add staff
>to deal with specific tasks without increasing the chance of CVE
>duplications?

Our experience with the Common Malware Enumeration suggests that it is possible for a space to simply become overwhelmed by any enumerative approach.   We are also very aware that the law of diminishing returns kicks in rather severely.  Covering the most important information sources for the most important products is one thing.  Covering everything is another.  For this reason, it is absolutely essential that we come to agreement on what the "must haves" are and what can be considered "nice-to-have" in terms of sources and products covered.

Let me put this another way...  There is no rational way to say that CVE's resourcing level is too low or too high unless we can compare CVE's performance to an agreed upon set of "must have" goals in terms of information sources and products covered.  Mark, your example of CNA allocated issues is a good illustration.  Are all CNA allocated issues "must haves"?  Unless we can answer that question, we can't address resourcing.

ANALYSIS PROCESS
=================
Kent wrote:
>The problem is what is the future of CVE from a maturation
>perspective? How do we mature the effort so that we can put in place a
>useful vulnerability identification and analysis capability that will survive and
>continue to be a valuable resource for the next couple decades?  Key word
>here is analysis.  The analytic aspects is an important aspect of what CVE
>provides today.  It cannot be watered down becoming nothing more than a
>simple reporting mechanism for vendor related disclosures.

We've been looking at the CVE project as an analytical capability for the past 4 years or so.  Sure did take us a while!    It turns out that a) MITRE has a lot experience in studying analysis processes and in creating tools to support analytical capabilities and b) the CVE team has several engagements with folks who do that sort of work with an eye on maturing the CVE analytical processes.   Not surprisingly, different "must-haves" lead to different processes.  In fact, the 4 questions we posed grew directly out of our internal work on analysis process review.  


Let me emphasize that we agree with both questions.  Resource discussions and analytical process are critical things for us to discuss as we consider CVE's future.

But until we can agree on the must haves, we can't make progress on those fronts.

We strongly suggest these are the 2 most important first questions:

1. Sources
  a. Which sources of vulnerability disclosures should be considered 
    "must haves" for which we provide "reference complete" coverage?  
  b. Which sources should be considered "nice-to-haves"?
  c. Which sources should be considered "can be safely ignored" 
    (e.g. they just cause noise)?

2. Coverage
  a. Which vendors and software products should we consider "must haves" 
     in that we will provide coverage for all reliable vulnerability 
     reports for them?  
  b. Which products or vendors should be considered "nice-to-haves"?
  c. Which ones should be considered "can be safely ignored" (e.g. php.golf)?


-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================


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From: "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>
To: cve-editorial-board-list <cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:39:37 -0400
Subject: CVE Information Sources & Scope
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Folks,

I've been away at a conference and just back so thought I would nudge the conversation regarding CVE forward.

We really need to push further on questions of scope before we can talk about staffing, speed and quality issues.

Below (under my sig file) is a list of possible information sources that CVE could use.  This list is not meant to be complete, or even framed in the most helpful way.   But, I want to get some form of specifics out to foster more discussion.

I've organized this into 4 groups: Government Information Sources, CNA Published Information, Non-CNA Vendor Advisories, Mailing Lists & VDBs.

Please review each sub-list and categorize each information source as:
+ must have
+ nice to have
+ should be ignored

The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?

Also, if you see any "must have" or "nice to have"  information source, please add them to the list and 


-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================


Government Information Sources
  US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
  US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
  US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
  DoD IAVAs 
  NISCC
  AUS-CERT
  CIAC


CNA Published Information
  CMU/CERT-CC
  Microsoft
  RedHat
  Debian
  Apache
  Apple OSX
  Oracle

  
Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
  Solaris 
  Suse 
  Mandriva
  HP-UX
  SCO
  AIX
  Cisco IOS
  Free BSD
  Open BSD
  Net BSD
  Gentoo (Linux)
  Ubuntu (Linux)



Mailing Lists & VDBs
  Bugtraq
  Vuln-Watch
  VulnDev
  Full Disclosure
  Security Focus
  Security Tracker
  OSVDB
  ISS X-Force
  FRSIRT
  Secunia
  Packet Storm
  SecuriTeam
  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)


From owner-cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG Tue Oct  4 11:24:21 2011
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Folks,

Just wanted to let you all know that we (MITRE) may be contacting you to try to set up individual phone calls to discuss the CVE scoping issue.   

It's incredibly important that we (as a Board) come to agreement about scope for CVE.  While we encourage your engagement in the mailing list (fosters consensus), we also understand that it may be helpful to talk.

Thanks,

-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================


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From: "Williams, James K" <James.Williams@ca.com>
To: "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>,
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Subject: RE: CVE Information Sources & Scope
Thread-Topic: CVE Information Sources & Scope
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Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:14:19 +0000
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Comments inline. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or comments about my assignments.

Thanks and regards,
Ken Williams, Director
CA Technologies Product Vulnerability Response Team
CA Technologies Business Unit Operations
wilja22@ca.com - 816-914-4225

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org [mailto:owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Mann, Dave
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:40 AM
To: cve-editorial-board-list
Subject: CVE Information Sources & Scope

Folks,

I've been away at a conference and just back so thought I would nudge the conversation regarding CVE forward.

We really need to push further on questions of scope before we can talk about staffing, speed and quality issues.

Below (under my sig file) is a list of possible information sources that CVE could use.  This list is not meant to be complete, or even framed in the most helpful way.   But, I want to get some form of specifics out to foster more discussion.

I've organized this into 4 groups: Government Information Sources, CNA Published Information, Non-CNA Vendor Advisories, Mailing Lists & VDBs.

Please review each sub-list and categorize each information source as:
+ must have
+ nice to have
+ should be ignored

The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?

Also, if you see any "must have" or "nice to have"  information source, please add them to the list and 


-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003 ==================================================================


Government Information Sources
+ must have  US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
+ must have  US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
+ must have  US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
+ must have  DoD IAVAs
+ nice to have  NISCC
+ nice to have  AUS-CERT
+ nice to have  CIAC


CNA Published Information
+ must have  CMU/CERT-CC
+ must have  Microsoft
+ must have  RedHat
+ nice to have  Debian
+ must have  Apache
+ must have  Apple OSX
+ must have  Oracle

  
Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
+ must have  Solaris 
+ must have  Suse 
+ must have  Mandriva
+ must have  HP-UX
+ should be ignored  SCO
+ must have  AIX
+ must have  Cisco IOS
+ must have  Free BSD
+ must have  Open BSD
+ must have  Net BSD
+ must have  Gentoo (Linux)
+ must have  Ubuntu (Linux)



Mailing Lists & VDBs
+ must have  Bugtraq
+ should be ignored  Vuln-Watch 
+ should be ignored  VulnDev
+ must have  Full Disclosure
+ must have  Security Focus
+ must have  Security Tracker
+ must have  OSVDB
+ nice to have  ISS X-Force
+ nice to have  FRSIRT
+ must have  Secunia
+ must have  Packet Storm
+ nice to have  SecuriTeam
+ should be ignored  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
+ should be ignored  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)



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Subject: Re: CVE Information Sources & Scope
From: Tom Stracener <strace@gmail.com>
To: "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>
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Dave, Board,

My take on this:

Government Information Sources
+ must have  US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
+ must have  US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
+ must have  US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
+ must have  DoD IAVAs
+ nice to have  NISCC
+ nice to have  AUS-CERT
+ nice to have  CIAC

CNA Published Information
+ must have  CMU/CERT-CC
+ must have  Microsoft
+ must have  RedHat
+ nice to have  Debian
+ must have  Apache
+ must have  Apple OSX
+ must have  Oracle

Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
+ must have  Solaris
+ must have  Suse
+ must have  Mandriva
+ must have  HP-UX
+ should be ignored  SCO
+ must have  AIX
+ must have  Cisco IOS
+ must have  Free BSD
+ must have  Open BSD
+ must have  Net BSD
+ must have  Gentoo (Linux)
+ must have  Ubuntu (Linux)

Mailing Lists & VDBs
+ must have  Bugtraq
+ should be ignored  Vuln-Watch
+ should be ignored  VulnDev
+ nice to have  Full Disclosure
+ must have  Security Focus
+ must have  Security Tracker
+ nice to have  OSVDB
+ nice to have  ISS X-Force
+ nice to have  FRSIRT
+ nice to have  Secunia
+ should be ignored  Packet Storm
+ nice to have  SecuriTeam
+ should be ignored  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
+ should be ignored  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)

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On 2011-10-04 10:39, Mann, Dave wrote:

> The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?

IMO, the bigger discussion is the future of CVE, and therefore the
future (or revised, reviewed, refreshed) charter.

Is CVE looking for original sources of vul information?  Or broad
coverage?  Or efficient coverage of the "biggest" news in vuls?

The list below is adequate if a bit dated, and duplicative (CIAC changed
their name, CIAC and AusCERT only republish vul information IIRC).

We (CERT/CC) have a similarly adequate, but dated list.  We're also
possibly more interested in the first hints of a new vul report instead
of something more authoritative that is ready for a CVE ID.

More new vul information comes out via twitter and blogs these days.
Seems most of it probably reaches the sources below at some point.
Exploit lists (metasploit, exploitdb) are other sources of new vul
information, depending on what CVE is looking for.

Back to the bigger picture, I'm on the side of issuing more CVE IDs
faster for more vul reports, having reasonable ways to distribute
assignment and manage duplicates and false alarms.  Accurate analysis is
great, but can come a few days after the ID is issued.  So my opinion is
that CVE should refocus on being *the* leading, fairly comprehensive
source of IDs (enumeration) for vul reports.  Some other capability can
do analysis or add further value later.

Goals, in time order (and as more information about a vul report becomes
available):

1. Assign ID to vul report (More CNAs?  More active CNAs?)
2. Manage duplicates, mistakes, etc.
3. Refine assignments (further duplicate resolution, merge/splits, final
arbitration)
4. Accurate analysis

Don't wait for #4 to issue a CVE ID.  Users need to be able to talk
about "the thing" (a vul report), even (unfortunately) if "the thing"
turns out to be a duplicate or false alarm.

> Government Information Sources
>   US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
>   US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
>   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
>   DoD IAVAs 
>   NISCC
>   AUS-CERT
>   CIAC
> 
> 
> CNA Published Information
>   CMU/CERT-CC
>   Microsoft
>   RedHat
>   Debian
>   Apache
>   Apple OSX
>   Oracle
> 
>   
> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
>   Solaris 
>   Suse 
>   Mandriva
>   HP-UX
>   SCO
>   AIX
>   Cisco IOS
>   Free BSD
>   Open BSD
>   Net BSD
>   Gentoo (Linux)
>   Ubuntu (Linux)
> 
> 
> 
> Mailing Lists & VDBs
>   Bugtraq
>   Vuln-Watch
>   VulnDev
>   Full Disclosure
>   Security Focus
>   Security Tracker
>   OSVDB
>   ISS X-Force
>   FRSIRT
>   Secunia
>   Packet Storm
>   SecuriTeam
>   SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
>   Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)



 - Art

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Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:01:42 -0400
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
To: "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>
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I apologize, but I'm going to add to (must/should/ignore) a don't know
which I'll just indicate by a dash. 


Government Information Sources
must  US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
must  US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
must   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
-   DoD IAVAs 
-  NISCC
must  AUS-CERT
ignore  CIAC (My understanding is that CIAC advisories are
	sufficiently coordinated with CERT that the additional
	interface is not high return)


CNA Published Information
must  CMU/CERT-CC
must  Microsoft
must  RedHat
should  Debian
must   Apache
must  Apple OSX 
must  Oracle

  
Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
?  Solaris  (Isn't Solaris now part of Oracle, a CNA?)
should  Suse 
ignore  Mandriva
should  HP-UX
ignore  SCO
ignore  AIX
must  Cisco IOS
should  Free BSD
should  Open BSD
ignore  Net BSD
should  Gentoo (Linux)
should  Ubuntu (Linux)



Mailing Lists & VDBs
must  Bugtraq
-  Vuln-Watch
-  VulnDev
ignore  Full Disclosure (see below)
-  Security Focus
-  Security Tracker
should  OSVDB
must  ISS X-Force
should  FRSIRT
should  Secunia
-  Packet Storm
-  SecuriTeam
-  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
-  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)

Full disclosure list: So why am I advocating for the CVE team to
ignore full disclosure?  It's not because I think the list is low
value, but because I expect that other groups are reading it,
processing it, and doing noise reduction.

I'll advocate as a should for three additional sources:

should: metasploit
should: Snort
should: Contagiodump.blogspot.com "Overview of exploit packs"

My logic for all three is that the attacks contained are likely to be
used (metasploit), things that Snort contributors think they should be
seeing (and thus which hit the initial CVE use case) and the exploit
pack data because those attacks are seen in the wild, and in my
current professional use of CVE, are the ones which I spend the most
time with.

Adam

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Reading mail backwards today...

On 2011-09-19 14:46, Mann, Dave wrote:

> Let me emphasize that we agree with both questions.  Resource discussions and analytical process are critical things for us to discuss as we consider CVE's future.
> 
> But until we can agree on the must haves, we can't make progress on those fronts.
> 



> We strongly suggest these are the 2 most important first questions:
> 
> 1. Sources
>   a. Which sources of vulnerability disclosures should be considered 
>     "must haves" for which we provide "reference complete" coverage?  
>   b. Which sources should be considered "nice-to-haves"?
>   c. Which sources should be considered "can be safely ignored" 
>     (e.g. they just cause noise)?
> 
> 2. Coverage
>   a. Which vendors and software products should we consider "must haves" 
>      in that we will provide coverage for all reliable vulnerability 
>      reports for them?  
>   b. Which products or vendors should be considered "nice-to-haves"?
>   c. Which ones should be considered "can be safely ignored" (e.g. php.golf)?

These are the same question, or 1. depends on 2.  IOW, if we know what
vendors/products we want to cover, then we can figure out which sources
to monitor.

golf.php gets posted in bugtraq, as does a remote code execution bug in IIS.

US-CERT Alerts, as of the last several years, are mostly republication
of Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, and Adobe vulnerabilities.

"Reference complete" would be great, but perhaps not worth the
investment.  OSVDB seems to be aiming for this.

What about:

1. big/core vendors/apps
2. anything a CNA assigns an ID for
3. everything else

Make 1 and 2 priorities (IOW, resource to meet 1 and 2).  CNAs should be
expected to pony up some resources to assign and de-duplicate IDs.

Need to define 1, which is at least started in the list you sent out.

Leave 3 for a slow week, or really just ignore it, unless somebody
cares, in which case it should rise to the level of 2 when a CNA assigns
and ID for it.

And make it clear to CVE users that CVE is *not* reference complete, and
not trying to be.  Make it clear that the count of CVE IDs per year is
at best a lower bound on the number of public vul reports that year.

Maybe another way to look at this is to decouple most of the analysis
from the assignment work.  Yes, correct assignment requires at least
enough analysis to distinguish separate or related vul reports.  Make
further analysis an add-on service, "CVE+analysis" or something.


 - Art

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From: "Williams, James K" <James.Williams@ca.com>
To: Art Manion <amanion@cert.org>, "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>
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Good points, Art.  In particular, quicker issuance of CVE identifiers would be great.

As far as monitoring of twitter and blogs goes, we also need to consider monitoring:
* pastebin, 
* smaller vendor bugtracking systems (I find vulns every week, in widely used software, that never makes it to BugTraq, Secunia, or CVE), 
* discussion forums (in a variety of languages, and many require registration), 
* reddit, 
* IRC, 
* and whatever other communication/dissemination mediums become popular (again) next month.  

When expanding monitoring of these types of sources, extensive automation is necessary.

Thanks and regards,
Ken


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org [mailto:owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Art Manion
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 12:54 PM
To: Mann, Dave
Cc: cve-editorial-board-list
Subject: Re: CVE Information Sources & Scope

On 2011-10-04 10:39, Mann, Dave wrote:

> The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?

IMO, the bigger discussion is the future of CVE, and therefore the future (or revised, reviewed, refreshed) charter.

Is CVE looking for original sources of vul information?  Or broad coverage?  Or efficient coverage of the "biggest" news in vuls?

The list below is adequate if a bit dated, and duplicative (CIAC changed their name, CIAC and AusCERT only republish vul information IIRC).

We (CERT/CC) have a similarly adequate, but dated list.  We're also possibly more interested in the first hints of a new vul report instead of something more authoritative that is ready for a CVE ID.

More new vul information comes out via twitter and blogs these days.
Seems most of it probably reaches the sources below at some point.
Exploit lists (metasploit, exploitdb) are other sources of new vul information, depending on what CVE is looking for.

Back to the bigger picture, I'm on the side of issuing more CVE IDs faster for more vul reports, having reasonable ways to distribute assignment and manage duplicates and false alarms.  Accurate analysis is great, but can come a few days after the ID is issued.  So my opinion is that CVE should refocus on being *the* leading, fairly comprehensive source of IDs (enumeration) for vul reports.  Some other capability can do analysis or add further value later.

Goals, in time order (and as more information about a vul report becomes
available):

1. Assign ID to vul report (More CNAs?  More active CNAs?) 2. Manage duplicates, mistakes, etc.
3. Refine assignments (further duplicate resolution, merge/splits, final
arbitration)
4. Accurate analysis

Don't wait for #4 to issue a CVE ID.  Users need to be able to talk about "the thing" (a vul report), even (unfortunately) if "the thing"
turns out to be a duplicate or false alarm.

> Government Information Sources
>   US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
>   US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
>   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
>   DoD IAVAs 
>   NISCC
>   AUS-CERT
>   CIAC
> 
> 
> CNA Published Information
>   CMU/CERT-CC
>   Microsoft
>   RedHat
>   Debian
>   Apache
>   Apple OSX
>   Oracle
> 
>   
> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
>   Solaris 
>   Suse 
>   Mandriva
>   HP-UX
>   SCO
>   AIX
>   Cisco IOS
>   Free BSD
>   Open BSD
>   Net BSD
>   Gentoo (Linux)
>   Ubuntu (Linux)
> 
> 
> 
> Mailing Lists & VDBs
>   Bugtraq
>   Vuln-Watch
>   VulnDev
>   Full Disclosure
>   Security Focus
>   Security Tracker
>   OSVDB
>   ISS X-Force
>   FRSIRT
>   Secunia
>   Packet Storm
>   SecuriTeam
>   SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
>   Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)



 - Art


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> Government Information Sources

>   US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
Must have.  Although largely republication at the moment, we expect this
to change, and volume is fairly low.

>   US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
Must have.

>   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
These are collections of already public reports, possibly generated from
CVE even?

>   DoD IAVAs 
Doubt usefulness.  Republication well after CVE has been assigned?

>   NISCC
Good to watch, new vul reports rarely come out.

>   AUS-CERT
Almost exclusively republication.  AusCERT even provides a list of what
products/vendors they monitor (or did).

>   CIAC
Name changed, believe this is entirely republication.

> CNA Published Information
>   CMU/CERT-CC
Must have, but included in US-CERT vul notes and Alerts above.

>   Microsoft
>   RedHat
>   Debian
>   Apache
>   Apple OSX
>   Oracle
Must have.

> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
>   Solaris 
>   Suse 
>   Mandriva
>   HP-UX
>   SCO
>   AIX
>   Cisco IOS
>   Free BSD
>   Open BSD
>   Net BSD
>   Gentoo (Linux)
>   Ubuntu (Linux)
Must have, although as usual lots of duplication across linux/UNIX distros.


> Mailing Lists & VDBs

It's been a while since I watched any of these closely.

>   Bugtraq
Must have.

>   Vuln-Watch
>   VulnDev
Not sure what these are like anymore.  Seemed to be low signal.

>   Full Disclosure
Lots of noise, but new reports come out.  Must have.

>   Security Focus
Bugtraq?  Or other lists?

>   Security Tracker
Not sure of current quality/signal.

>   OSVDB
Must have, because they're trying to be reference complete.

>   ISS X-Force

>   FRSIRT
Changed name again -- VUPEN?  If they provide original reports, then
must have.

>   Secunia
Good to have.

>   Packet Storm
No longer familiar, seems dated.

>   SecuriTeam
No longer familiar.

>   SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
Don't know about new vul reports here.

>   Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)
Only know about their archive service.


IMO, any and every source of "OC" (original content, original vul
reports) should be monitored, starting with major vendors, CNAs, and
sources with high quality signal (even if they are also noisy).


 - Art

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Btw, the list below was definitely not meant to be complete.  I also frequently find new (to me) vuln info on Facebook, Google+, many non-security forums, etc, etc.

I also very regularly find unpublicized vulnerabilities in just about every networked device or software I own, including TVs, AV receivers, printers, cable boxes, and even the GM service manual software for my car (old version of Tomcat).  

At the end of the day, we'll just need to select the business critical/important technologies to track, and ignore the rest.

Thanks and regards,
Ken


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org [mailto:owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Williams, James K
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:17 PM
To: Art Manion; Mann, Dave
Cc: cve-editorial-board-list
Subject: RE: CVE Information Sources & Scope


Good points, Art.  In particular, quicker issuance of CVE identifiers would be great.

As far as monitoring of twitter and blogs goes, we also need to consider monitoring:
* pastebin, 
* smaller vendor bugtracking systems (I find vulns every week, in widely used software, that never makes it to BugTraq, Secunia, or CVE), 
* discussion forums (in a variety of languages, and many require registration), 
* reddit, 
* IRC, 
* and whatever other communication/dissemination mediums become popular (again) next month.  

When expanding monitoring of these types of sources, extensive automation is necessary.

Thanks and regards,
Ken


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org [mailto:owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Art Manion
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 12:54 PM
To: Mann, Dave
Cc: cve-editorial-board-list
Subject: Re: CVE Information Sources & Scope

On 2011-10-04 10:39, Mann, Dave wrote:

> The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?

IMO, the bigger discussion is the future of CVE, and therefore the future (or revised, reviewed, refreshed) charter.

Is CVE looking for original sources of vul information?  Or broad coverage?  Or efficient coverage of the "biggest" news in vuls?

The list below is adequate if a bit dated, and duplicative (CIAC changed their name, CIAC and AusCERT only republish vul information IIRC).

We (CERT/CC) have a similarly adequate, but dated list.  We're also possibly more interested in the first hints of a new vul report instead of something more authoritative that is ready for a CVE ID.

More new vul information comes out via twitter and blogs these days.
Seems most of it probably reaches the sources below at some point.
Exploit lists (metasploit, exploitdb) are other sources of new vul information, depending on what CVE is looking for.

Back to the bigger picture, I'm on the side of issuing more CVE IDs faster for more vul reports, having reasonable ways to distribute assignment and manage duplicates and false alarms.  Accurate analysis is great, but can come a few days after the ID is issued.  So my opinion is that CVE should refocus on being *the* leading, fairly comprehensive source of IDs (enumeration) for vul reports.  Some other capability can do analysis or add further value later.

Goals, in time order (and as more information about a vul report becomes
available):

1. Assign ID to vul report (More CNAs?  More active CNAs?) 2. Manage duplicates, mistakes, etc.
3. Refine assignments (further duplicate resolution, merge/splits, final
arbitration)
4. Accurate analysis

Don't wait for #4 to issue a CVE ID.  Users need to be able to talk about "the thing" (a vul report), even (unfortunately) if "the thing"
turns out to be a duplicate or false alarm.

> Government Information Sources
>   US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
>   US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
>   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
>   DoD IAVAs 
>   NISCC
>   AUS-CERT
>   CIAC
> 
> 
> CNA Published Information
>   CMU/CERT-CC
>   Microsoft
>   RedHat
>   Debian
>   Apache
>   Apple OSX
>   Oracle
> 
>   
> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
>   Solaris 
>   Suse 
>   Mandriva
>   HP-UX
>   SCO
>   AIX
>   Cisco IOS
>   Free BSD
>   Open BSD
>   Net BSD
>   Gentoo (Linux)
>   Ubuntu (Linux)
> 
> 
> 
> Mailing Lists & VDBs
>   Bugtraq
>   Vuln-Watch
>   VulnDev
>   Full Disclosure
>   Security Focus
>   Security Tracker
>   OSVDB
>   ISS X-Force
>   FRSIRT
>   Secunia
>   Packet Storm
>   SecuriTeam
>   SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
>   Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)



 - Art


From owner-cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG Tue Oct  4 16:25:42 2011
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From: "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>
To: Art Manion <amanion@cert.org>,
        cve-editorial-board-list
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Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:24:36 -0400
Subject: CVE's Charter, Scope and the Role of CNAs
Thread-Topic: CVE's Charter, Scope and the Role of CNAs
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Art has raised some critically important points and questions that are worth addressing in order to keep the conversation moving forward.

Dave wrote:
>> The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture
>vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?


Art wrote:
>IMO, the bigger discussion is the future of CVE, and therefore the
>future (or revised, reviewed, refreshed) charter.

Art, we're in total agreement.

CVE's original charter was to cover all publicly known vulnerabilities.  We concede this is impossible as a practical matter.  Internally, we've been discussing restricting this to all publicly known English-based vulnerability disclosures.

Please note, I don't mean to prematurely exclude non-English disclosures from consideration.    I think it may eventually be possible to talk about non-English disclosures and, as you've indicated, more involvement of CNAs is going to be a part of the solution.  But I want to ensure we're hitting the must-haves in the English-based sources first.

So, by all means, if you feel that there are non-English-based sources that are "must-haves", please call them out.  More broadly, let's not restrict the scope or charter of CVE based on current processes in any way.  Let's please discuss what needs to be covered by CVE first and then we talk about process to achieve that second.

>1. Assign ID to vul report (More CNAs?  More active CNAs?)
>2. Manage duplicates, mistakes, etc.
>3. Refine assignments (further duplicate resolution, merge/splits, final
>arbitration)
>4. Accurate analysis
>
>Don't wait for #4 to issue a CVE ID.  Users need to be able to talk
>about "the thing" (a vul report), even (unfortunately) if "the thing"
>turns out to be a duplicate or false alarm.


You're going in directions that our thinking is going too.   If it's useful to think about solutions even as we discuss goals, I want to toss out 2 very, very hard problems that I think we should start thinking about now:  
a) Economic incentives for SME produced content (specifically applied to CNAs)
b) Level of abstraction issues

ECONOMIC INCENTIVES - It is worth emphasizing that MITRE continually seeks the involvement of new CNAs.  We are (and y'all should be) extremely grateful for all of the CNAs that participate.  Our experience is that CNA relationships work out when an organization has mature enough vulnerability information practices and, as a result, they incur relatively low marginal costs in terms of issuing CVE IDs.    This level of maturity varies widely, based on what we see.  

In many other areas of cyber-security information provisioning, we see lots of appeals to various forms of "crowd-sourcing" content creation.   The problem is, good content requires good SMEs and good SMEs are expensive.  The question becomes, what are the economic incentives for organizations to fund SMEs to act as CVE CNAs?

We've been looking hard at many other identification systems that have successfully federated their content creation. Economically, we see 2 primary models: ISBN and VIN.  ISBN numbers are produced by publishers because they are routine and easy to assign (compared to CVEs) and there is an economic benefit for doing so.  VINs are assigned by manufacturers because (in the US) the DOT mandates it.

MITRE is already beating the bushes for CNAs and we have the set of CNAs that we have (and are grateful for).  How do we expand that set?

LEVEL OF ABSTRACTION - There are 3 LoA questions to start thinking about.  First, can we deal with significant drift in level of abstraction among CNAs?  Will we be able to fix duplicates from different CNAs if/when they are assigning IDs at different LoAs?    

Second, is CVE's current LoA (which grew out of vulnerability practices in the late 90s/early 2000s) too low for today's vulnerability management practices?   

Third, combining these first two questions, can we live with a CNA that is committed to the ideal of "silent patching" and, in their role as a CNA, assigns CVE IDs on a "per patch" basis with no further information?   Those of us who dealt with vulnerability information back in the 90s remember the "silent patch" days.  Would it be acceptable moving forward?




-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Art Manion [mailto:amanion@cert.org]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:54 PM
>To: Mann, Dave
>Cc: cve-editorial-board-list
>Subject: Re: CVE Information Sources & Scope
>
>On 2011-10-04 10:39, Mann, Dave wrote:
>
>> The yard-stick by which to consider these is, does CVE need to capture
>vulnerabilities from this source in order to full-fill its charter?
>
>IMO, the bigger discussion is the future of CVE, and therefore the
>future (or revised, reviewed, refreshed) charter.
>
>Is CVE looking for original sources of vul information?  Or broad
>coverage?  Or efficient coverage of the "biggest" news in vuls?
>
>The list below is adequate if a bit dated, and duplicative (CIAC changed
>their name, CIAC and AusCERT only republish vul information IIRC).
>
>We (CERT/CC) have a similarly adequate, but dated list.  We're also
>possibly more interested in the first hints of a new vul report instead
>of something more authoritative that is ready for a CVE ID.
>
>More new vul information comes out via twitter and blogs these days.
>Seems most of it probably reaches the sources below at some point.
>Exploit lists (metasploit, exploitdb) are other sources of new vul
>information, depending on what CVE is looking for.
>
>Back to the bigger picture, I'm on the side of issuing more CVE IDs
>faster for more vul reports, having reasonable ways to distribute
>assignment and manage duplicates and false alarms.  Accurate analysis is
>great, but can come a few days after the ID is issued.  So my opinion is
>that CVE should refocus on being *the* leading, fairly comprehensive
>source of IDs (enumeration) for vul reports.  Some other capability can
>do analysis or add further value later.
>
>Goals, in time order (and as more information about a vul report becomes
>available):
>
>1. Assign ID to vul report (More CNAs?  More active CNAs?)
>2. Manage duplicates, mistakes, etc.
>3. Refine assignments (further duplicate resolution, merge/splits, final
>arbitration)
>4. Accurate analysis
>
>Don't wait for #4 to issue a CVE ID.  Users need to be able to talk
>about "the thing" (a vul report), even (unfortunately) if "the thing"
>turns out to be a duplicate or false alarm.
>
>> Government Information Sources
>>   US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
>>   US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
>>   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
>>   DoD IAVAs
>>   NISCC
>>   AUS-CERT
>>   CIAC
>>
>>
>> CNA Published Information
>>   CMU/CERT-CC
>>   Microsoft
>>   RedHat
>>   Debian
>>   Apache
>>   Apple OSX
>>   Oracle
>>
>>
>> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
>>   Solaris
>>   Suse
>>   Mandriva
>>   HP-UX
>>   SCO
>>   AIX
>>   Cisco IOS
>>   Free BSD
>>   Open BSD
>>   Net BSD
>>   Gentoo (Linux)
>>   Ubuntu (Linux)
>>
>>
>>
>> Mailing Lists & VDBs
>>   Bugtraq
>>   Vuln-Watch
>>   VulnDev
>>   Full Disclosure
>>   Security Focus
>>   Security Tracker
>>   OSVDB
>>   ISS X-Force
>>   FRSIRT
>>   Secunia
>>   Packet Storm
>>   SecuriTeam
>>   SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
>>   Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)
>
>
>
> - Art


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> Government Information Sources
+ all 'must have'

> CNA Published Information
+ all 'must have' (otherwise shouldn't be a CNA)

> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
+ all 'must have'

> Mailing Lists & VDBs
+ must >  Bugtraq
+ ignored >  Vuln-Watch
+ ignored >  VulnDev
+ should >  Full Disclosure
+ ignored >  Security Focus
+ ignored >  Security Tracker
+ ignored >  OSVDB
+ ignored >  ISS X-Force
+ ignored >  FRSIRT
+ ignored >  Secunia
+ ignored >  Packet Storm
+ ignored >  SecuriTeam
+ nice >  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
+ ignored  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)

Additional
+ must "Oss-security" (although also covered by my "CNA" vote)

From owner-cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG Wed Oct  5 09:43:13 2011
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On 2011-10-04 16:24 , Mann, Dave wrote:

> CVE's original charter was to cover all publicly known vulnerabilities.  We concede this is impossible as a practical matter.  Internally, we've been discussing restricting this to all publicly known English-based vulnerability disclosures.
>
> Please note, I don't mean to prematurely exclude non-English disclosures from consideration.    I think it may eventually be possible to talk about non-English disclosures and, as you've indicated, more involvement of CNAs is going to be a part of the solution.  But I want to ensure we're hitting the must-haves in the English-based sources first.

Despite what probably comes over as criticism of CVE, we at CERT/CC have
faced exactly the same problems.  For years we tried to cover everything
(I personally did this work), distinguish unique reports, duplicates,
"real" vulnerabilities, etc.  Then XSS came along...

> So, by all means, if you feel that there are non-English-based sources that are "must-haves", please call them out.  More broadly, let's not restrict the scope or charter of CVE based on current processes in any way.  Let's please discuss what needs to be covered by CVE first and then we talk about process to achieve that second.

We do lightly monitor a handful of Chinese language blogs.  Not sure I'd
call them must haves but in any automated collection, subscribe,
translate, and match up resulting English words with English words from
other sources (or a watchlist, or a search, or whatever).

> You're going in directions that our thinking is going too.   If it's useful to think about solutions even as we discuss goals, I want to toss out 2 very, very hard problems that I think we should start thinking about now:  
> a) Economic incentives for SME produced content (specifically applied to CNAs)
> b) Level of abstraction issues

I'm prone to jumping to conclusions/solutions :)

> ECONOMIC INCENTIVES - It is worth emphasizing that MITRE continually seeks the involvement of new CNAs.  We are (and y'all should be) extremely grateful for all of the CNAs that participate.  Our experience is that CNA relationships work out when an organization has mature enough vulnerability information practices and, as a result, they incur relatively low marginal costs in terms of issuing CVE IDs.    This level of maturity varies widely, based on what we see.  
> 
> In many other areas of cyber-security information provisioning, we see lots of appeals to various forms of "crowd-sourcing" content creation.   The problem is, good content requires good SMEs and good SMEs are expensive.  The question becomes, what are the economic incentives for organizations to fund SMEs to act as CVE CNAs?

Yes, while crowd-sourcing has it's benefits (mostly leveraging others'
resources), we've all seen bad vul information get picked up and
rebroadcast.  I think (but am not sure about this) that CVE will have to
accept some crowd-sourcing help (to distribute coverage and increase CVE
assignment speed, if those end up being goals).  Perhaps having a
smaller crowd of mature CNAs will help, or having CNAs act more as
distribution centers and arbitrators, with MITRE being the ultimate
arbitrator (but not having to touch content decisions that a CNA handled
well/correctly).

> We've been looking hard at many other identification systems that have successfully federated their content creation. Economically, we see 2 primary models: ISBN and VIN.  ISBN numbers are produced by publishers because they are routine and easy to assign (compared to CVEs) and there is an economic benefit for doing so.  VINs are assigned by manufacturers because (in the US) the DOT mandates it.
> 
> MITRE is already beating the bushes for CNAs and we have the set of CNAs that we have (and are grateful for).  How do we expand that set?

CERT/CC acts as a proxy CNA for a couple other CSIRTs -- most likely
those CSIRTs could become successful CNAs with a little further
training/monitoring.  Maybe the board could come up with a list of new
CNAs?  As for incentives, the driver I'm familiar with is U.S.
Government and enterprise who want (need) to scan/patch/comply/manage
vulnerabilities, and the associated vendor space.  So maybe the
"security vendor" space has a horse in the race?  A handful of CSIRTs
and vulnerability databases might step up as they have inherent desire
to document things well.

Some vulnerability reporters/researchers (now we're getting to the
"crowd" more) often ask for CVE IDs, they also seem to want to document
their work properly, like ISBN.

Vendors whose customers are in the USG/enterprise set also seem to
recognize the value in proper documentation (including CVE ID) -- also
like the ISBN model.  So vendors with mature vulnerability response
capabilities might be CNA candidates.

USG might not mandate CVE IDs (like VINs), but USG use of CVE IDs
encourages others to use them.

> LEVEL OF ABSTRACTION - There are 3 LoA questions to start thinking about.  First, can we deal with significant drift in level of abstraction among CNAs?  Will we be able to fix duplicates from different CNAs if/when they are assigning IDs at different LoAs?    
> 
> Second, is CVE's current LoA (which grew out of vulnerability practices in the late 90s/early 2000s) too low for today's vulnerability management practices?   
> 
> Third, combining these first two questions, can we live with a CNA that is committed to the ideal of "silent patching" and, in their role as a CNA, assigns CVE IDs on a "per patch" basis with no further information?   Those of us who dealt with vulnerability information back in the 90s remember the "silent patch" days.  Would it be acceptable moving forward?

I think CVE will have to deal with different LoA.  Along with
"duplicates" and "false alarm" consider relationships like "extends" or
"is subset of".  This could allow one CNA to assign an ID for a report
(of say multiple XSS vuls).  If someone wants to go lower, a CNA can
assign IDs for specific XSS vuls, the IDs are related with a
well-defined predicate.  As more information becomes available, CNAs or
MITRE (the ultimate CNA) can "fix" LoA without removing existing IDs.

Not sure I know if the current CVE LoA is too high or too low.  I think
it needs to become more flexible.  My suggestion is that a CVE ID names
a "report of one or more vulnerabilities."  Ideally, this would be one
vulnerability, by some best LoA practice, probably similar to the
existing CVE rules.  In practice, it won't always be just one
vulnerability, but the "is subset of" and other relationships might
allow drift, hopefully drift towards "accuracy," and at least tolerance
of multiple LoA for the same "vulnerability."

If a vendor is going to publish a patch with a CVD ID and no information
about the vulnerability -- what's the point?  Is there anything to
identify?  I guess there is, but there'd be little or no hope of ever
relating that ID to anything else useful (like Oracle fixing bugs and
not referencing public discussion of the bugs).  I guess I'd like CVE to
strongly discourage such behavior, so maybe require CVE IDs have some
description/reference?


 - Art

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>editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Williams, James K
>Good points, Art.  In particular, quicker issuance of CVE identifiers would be
>great.

I triple promise that we're going to have the speed of issuance discussion.   Promise.



>As far as monitoring of twitter and blogs goes, we also need to consider
>monitoring:
>* pastebin,
>* smaller vendor bugtracking systems (I find vulns every week, in widely
>used software, that never makes it to BugTraq, Secunia, or CVE),
>* discussion forums (in a variety of languages, and many require
>registration),
>* reddit,
>* IRC,
>* and whatever other communication/dissemination mediums become
>popular (again) next month.
>
>When expanding monitoring of these types of sources, extensive
>automation is necessary.

James, could you talk more about automation techniques for monitoring these sources?



-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================





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Folks,

First, thanks to all who've responded to the request for votes on must-haves and nice to haves regarding vulnerability disclosure sources.

If you haven't weighed in yet, please do so.  Having us all (the Editorial Board) in agreement on must-haves vs nice-to-haves will be important before we can talk about harder issues like response time and scalability.

I've compiled the votes to date and have presented them in plain text below (because, yes, I am that old).

BIG NOTE:  I was expecting you all to add a *LOT* more different information sources.  As Art correctly noted, this list of sources is dated.  In particular, when it comes to vendor issued disclosures, it really reflects the traditional bias towards OS level vulnerabilities that speaks of our older history.

I'm frankly surprised that you all aren't suggesting more non-OS vendors that must be monitored.    

I would ask that you all think hard about whether or not non-OS vendors should be added, or is it sufficient to monitor non-vendor sources for this class?


-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================


VULNERABILITY INFORMATION SOURCES             [ M,  N,  I]
  M = must have
  N = nice to have
  I = ignore


Government Information Sources
  US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories) [ 5,  0,  0] 
  US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)       [ 5,  0,  0]
  US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)         [ 4,  1,  0]
  DoD IAVAs                                   [ 3,  1,  0]
  NISCC                                       [ 1,  3,  0]
  AUS-CERT                                    [ 2,  2,  1]
  CIAC (name has changed)                     [ 1,  2,  2]


CNA Published Information
  CMU/CERT-CC                                 [ 5,  0,  0]
  Microsoft                                   [ 5,  0,  0]
  RedHat                                      [ 5,  0,  0]
  Debian                                      [ 2,  3,  0]
  Apache                                      [ 5,  0,  0]
  Apple OSX                                   [ 5,  0,  0]
  Oracle                                      [ 5,  0,  0]

  
Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
  Solaris                                     [ 4,  0,  0]
  Suse                                        [ 4,  1,  0]
  Mandriva                                    [ 4,  0,  1]
  HP-UX                                       [ 4,  1,  0]
  SCO                                         [ 2,  0,  3]
  AIX                                         [ 4,  0,  1]
  Cisco IOS                                   [ 5,  0,  0]
  Free BSD                                    [ 4,  1,  0]
  Open BSD                                    [ 4,  1,  0]
  Net BSD                                     [ 4,  0,  1]
  Gentoo (Linux)                              [ 4,  1,  0]
  Ubuntu (Linux)                              [ 4,  1,  0]



Mailing Lists & VDBs
  Bugtraq                                     [ 5,  0,  0]
  Vuln-Watch                                  [ 0,  0,  4]
  VulnDev                                     [ 0,  0,  4]
  Full Disclosure                             [ 2,  3,  1]
  Security Focus                              [ 2,  0,  1]
  Security Tracker                            [ 2,  0,  1]
  OSVDB                                       [ 2,  2,  1]
  ISS X-Force                                 [ 1,  2,  1]
  FRSIRT  (VUPEN)                             [ 1,  3,  1]
  Secunia                                     [ 1,  2,  1]
  Packet Storm                                [ 1,  1,  2]
  SecuriTeam                                  [ 0,  2,  1]
  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)                  [ 0,  1,  2]
  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)           [ 0,  0,  3]
  Metasploit                                  [ 0,  1,  0]
  Snort                                       [ 0,  1,  0]
  Contagiodump.blogspot.com                   [ 0,  1,  0]
  Oss-security                                [ 1,  0,  0]


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A few more info sources to consider ...

http://www.exploit-db.com/
Notes: effectively replaced milw0rm, good source for exploit code

http://isc.sans.org/
Notes: decent source for significant new security events, patches, zero day

http://www.webappsec.org/lists/websecurity/archive/
Notes: mostly noise, but rare vuln disclosures do occur

http://www.linuxsecurity.com/
Notes: Central resource for major linux vendors, but would be better to monitor vendor directly

http://www.immunityinc.com/ceu-index.shtml
Notes: Regularly post fresh or zero day exploit info, but must have subscription

http://aluigi.altervista.org/
Notes: very prolific vuln researcher, worth monitoring directly due to volume

http://www.coresecurity.com/content/core-impact-pro-security-updates
Notes: Occasionally post fresh or zero day exploit info, but must have subscription


Thanks and regards,
Ken Williams, Director
CA Technologies Product Vulnerability Response Team
CA Technologies Business Unit Operations
wilja22@ca.com - 816-914-4225


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org [mailto:owner-cve-editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Mann, Dave
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:33 AM
To: cve-editorial-board-list
Subject: Update Disclosure Sources List - Please Vote!

Folks,

First, thanks to all who've responded to the request for votes on must-haves and nice to haves regarding vulnerability disclosure sources.

If you haven't weighed in yet, please do so.  Having us all (the Editorial Board) in agreement on must-haves vs nice-to-haves will be important before we can talk about harder issues like response time and scalability.

I've compiled the votes to date and have presented them in plain text below (because, yes, I am that old).

BIG NOTE:  I was expecting you all to add a *LOT* more different information sources.  As Art correctly noted, this list of sources is dated.  In particular, when it comes to vendor issued disclosures, it really reflects the traditional bias towards OS level vulnerabilities that speaks of our older history.

I'm frankly surprised that you all aren't suggesting more non-OS vendors that must be monitored.    

I would ask that you all think hard about whether or not non-OS vendors should be added, or is it sufficient to monitor non-vendor sources for this class?


-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003 ==================================================================


VULNERABILITY INFORMATION SOURCES             [ M,  N,  I]
  M = must have
  N = nice to have
  I = ignore


Government Information Sources
  US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories) [ 5,  0,  0] 
  US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)       [ 5,  0,  0]
  US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)         [ 4,  1,  0]
  DoD IAVAs                                   [ 3,  1,  0]
  NISCC                                       [ 1,  3,  0]
  AUS-CERT                                    [ 2,  2,  1]
  CIAC (name has changed)                     [ 1,  2,  2]


CNA Published Information
  CMU/CERT-CC                                 [ 5,  0,  0]
  Microsoft                                   [ 5,  0,  0]
  RedHat                                      [ 5,  0,  0]
  Debian                                      [ 2,  3,  0]
  Apache                                      [ 5,  0,  0]
  Apple OSX                                   [ 5,  0,  0]
  Oracle                                      [ 5,  0,  0]

  
Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
  Solaris                                     [ 4,  0,  0]
  Suse                                        [ 4,  1,  0]
  Mandriva                                    [ 4,  0,  1]
  HP-UX                                       [ 4,  1,  0]
  SCO                                         [ 2,  0,  3]
  AIX                                         [ 4,  0,  1]
  Cisco IOS                                   [ 5,  0,  0]
  Free BSD                                    [ 4,  1,  0]
  Open BSD                                    [ 4,  1,  0]
  Net BSD                                     [ 4,  0,  1]
  Gentoo (Linux)                              [ 4,  1,  0]
  Ubuntu (Linux)                              [ 4,  1,  0]



Mailing Lists & VDBs
  Bugtraq                                     [ 5,  0,  0]
  Vuln-Watch                                  [ 0,  0,  4]
  VulnDev                                     [ 0,  0,  4]
  Full Disclosure                             [ 2,  3,  1]
  Security Focus                              [ 2,  0,  1]
  Security Tracker                            [ 2,  0,  1]
  OSVDB                                       [ 2,  2,  1]
  ISS X-Force                                 [ 1,  2,  1]
  FRSIRT  (VUPEN)                             [ 1,  3,  1]
  Secunia                                     [ 1,  2,  1]
  Packet Storm                                [ 1,  1,  2]
  SecuriTeam                                  [ 0,  2,  1]
  SANS Mailing List (Qualys)                  [ 0,  1,  2]
  Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)           [ 0,  0,  3]
  Metasploit                                  [ 0,  1,  0]
  Snort                                       [ 0,  1,  0]
  Contagiodump.blogspot.com                   [ 0,  1,  0]
  Oss-security                                [ 1,  0,  0]


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Virtually every aspect of vuln processing can be automated, including:

* searching by keyword on any website or mailing list archive (marc.info works great as long as keyword is at least 3 char)
* monitoring web pages (ie. vendor security and support home pages) and mailing lists for updates
* using google or other search engine to monitor smaller vendor sites, support forums, bugtracking systems
* keyword searching on pastebin
* IRC channel logging, and search through published logs
* monitoring twitter feeds for new twitter feeds and for links to websites with vuln content
* loading of a vuln queue based on content culled from above actions
* filtering noise out of vuln queue
* CVE assignment, after very brief cursory review by human

In the end, it becomes a matter of manpower vs acceptable level of accuracy.

In my experience, I have found that vendors modify their security and support page locations and formats so often that frequent manual review is necessary.  I've also found that queue filtering is best left to human SMEs.

Even SMEs though can automate portions of their work by using custom browser add-ons and features, mail client filters, etc.


All said (and I'm certain that Steve would agree with me), there's simply no automated substitute for a quality SME who is obsessed with accuracy and thoroughness.  :)


Thanks and regards,
Ken Williams, Director
CA Technologies Product Vulnerability Response Team
CA Technologies Business Unit Operations
wilja22@ca.com - 816-914-4225


-----Original Message-----
From: Mann, Dave [mailto:damann@mitre.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:21 AM
To: Williams, James K; cve-editorial-board-list
Subject: RE: CVE Information Sources & Scope

>editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Williams, James K 
>Good points, Art.  In particular, quicker issuance of CVE identifiers 
>would be great.

I triple promise that we're going to have the speed of issuance discussion.   Promise.



>As far as monitoring of twitter and blogs goes, we also need to 
>consider
>monitoring:
>* pastebin,
>* smaller vendor bugtracking systems (I find vulns every week, in 
>widely used software, that never makes it to BugTraq, Secunia, or CVE),
>* discussion forums (in a variety of languages, and many require 
>registration),
>* reddit,
>* IRC,
>* and whatever other communication/dissemination mediums become popular 
>(again) next month.
>
>When expanding monitoring of these types of sources, extensive 
>automation is necessary.

James, could you talk more about automation techniques for monitoring these sources?



-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003 ==================================================================





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From: "Mann, Dave" <damann@mitre.org>
To: "Williams, James K" <James.Williams@ca.com>,
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Ken noted:
>All said (and I'm certain that Steve would agree with me), there's simply
>no automated substitute for a quality SME who is obsessed with accuracy and
>thoroughness.  :)>

We all three are in agreement.

I just presented a paper at a conference making roughly this same point.  I stole this line from Matt Burton (who I hope returns to security work) who said we need to focus on effective computer augmentation, not merely computer automation.

-Dave
==================================================================
David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
==================================================================


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Williams, James K [mailto:James.Williams@ca.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 1:33 PM
>To: Mann, Dave; cve-editorial-board-list
>Subject: RE: CVE Information Sources & Scope
>
>Virtually every aspect of vuln processing can be automated, including:
>
>* searching by keyword on any website or mailing list archive (marc.info
>works great as long as keyword is at least 3 char)
>* monitoring web pages (ie. vendor security and support home pages) and
>mailing lists for updates
>* using google or other search engine to monitor smaller vendor sites,
>support forums, bugtracking systems
>* keyword searching on pastebin
>* IRC channel logging, and search through published logs
>* monitoring twitter feeds for new twitter feeds and for links to websites
>with vuln content
>* loading of a vuln queue based on content culled from above actions
>* filtering noise out of vuln queue
>* CVE assignment, after very brief cursory review by human
>
>In the end, it becomes a matter of manpower vs acceptable level of
>accuracy.
>
>In my experience, I have found that vendors modify their security and
>support page locations and formats so often that frequent manual review is
>necessary.  I've also found that queue filtering is best left to human
>SMEs.
>
>Even SMEs though can automate portions of their work by using custom
>browser add-ons and features, mail client filters, etc.
>
>
>All said (and I'm certain that Steve would agree with me), there's simply
>no automated substitute for a quality SME who is obsessed with accuracy and
>thoroughness.  :)>
>
>Thanks and regards,
>Ken Williams, Director
>CA Technologies Product Vulnerability Response Team
>CA Technologies Business Unit Operations
>wilja22@ca.com - 816-914-4225
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mann, Dave [mailto:damann@mitre.org]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:21 AM
>To: Williams, James K; cve-editorial-board-list
>Subject: RE: CVE Information Sources & Scope
>
>>editorial-board-list@lists.mitre.org] On Behalf Of Williams, James K
>>Good points, Art.  In particular, quicker issuance of CVE identifiers
>>would be great.
>
>I triple promise that we're going to have the speed of issuance discussion.
>Promise.
>
>
>
>>As far as monitoring of twitter and blogs goes, we also need to
>>consider
>>monitoring:
>>* pastebin,
>>* smaller vendor bugtracking systems (I find vulns every week, in
>>widely used software, that never makes it to BugTraq, Secunia, or CVE),
>>* discussion forums (in a variety of languages, and many require
>>registration),
>>* reddit,
>>* IRC,
>>* and whatever other communication/dissemination mediums become popular
>>(again) next month.
>>
>>When expanding monitoring of these types of sources, extensive
>>automation is necessary.
>
>James, could you talk more about automation techniques for monitoring these
>sources?
>
>
>
>-Dave
>==================================================================
>David Mann | Principal Infosec Scientist | The MITRE Corporation
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>e-mail:damann@mitre.org | cell:781.424.6003
>==================================================================
>
>



From owner-cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG Thu Oct  6 11:22:34 2011
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From: <Kent_Landfield@McAfee.com>
To: <damann@mitre.org>, <cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:20:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Update Disclosure Sources List - Please Vote!
Thread-Topic: Update Disclosure Sources List - Please Vote!
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I have voted but also included a few more on the end….

Government Information Sources
  Must Have - US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
  Must Have - US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
  Ignore - US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
  Ignore - DoD IAVAs
  Nice to Have - NISCC
  Nice to Have - AUS-CERT
  Ignore - CIAC (name has changed)


CNA Published Information
  All CNAs are a Must Have

Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
  All non-CNS vendor advisories are a Must Have


Mailing Lists & VDBs
  Must Have - Bugtraq
    Ignore - Vuln-Watch
    Ignore - VulnDev
  Nice to Have - Full Disclosure
    Ignore - Security Focus
    Ignore - Security Tracker
  Must Have - OSVDB
    Ignore - ISS X-Force
  Must Have - FRSIRT  (VUPEN)
  Must Have - Secunia
    Ignore - Packet Storm
    Ignore - SecuriTeam
    Ignore - SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
    Ignore - Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)
  Must Have - Metasploit
  Nice to Have - Snort
  Nice to Have - Contagiodump.blogspot.com
  Nice to Have - Oss-security

Non-OS venders should be included
Specifically Desktop products that are commonly seen in both corporate and consumer systems

Additions….

 1.  Must haves
    *   APSA / APSB - Adobe
 2.  Nice to have
    *   ZDI
    *   Exploit-DB
    *   MSVR – Microsoft Vulnerability Research Advisories
    *   iDefense
    *   cisco-sa-xxxxxxxx-xxx (Cisco Security Advisories)
    *   Htxxxx (Apple)
    *   VMSA (Vmware Security Advisories)
    *   CNVD (China National Vulnerability Database)
    *   Metasploit Module Ids

Kent Landfield
Director Content Strategy, Architecture and Standards

McAfee, Inc.
5000 Headquarters Dr.
Plano, Texas 75024

Direct: +1.972.963.7096
Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
Web: www.mcafee.com<http://www.mcafee.com/>


From owner-cve-editorial-board-list@LISTS.MITRE.ORG Fri Oct  7 07:35:28 2011
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From: Carsten Eiram <che@secunia.com>
To: "'damann@mitre.org'" <damann@mitre.org>
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I already sent my ratings along with a lot of other feedback to Dave, but should share my scoring (see inline) with the board as well (Dave: Hindsight made me change a couple of the ratings + I added scores for the other suggested sources).

Generally, I believe that VDBs (at least the 2-3 major ones like Secunia, OSVDB, and SecurityFocus) are important resources to monitor as information there will be referenced a lot by other sources. Preferably all vulnerability reports covered by these VDBs should have CVEs assigned.

cheers,
/Carsten



> Government Information Sources
>   US-CERT Advisories (aka CERT-CC Advisories)
+ M

>   US-CERT Vulnerability Notes (CERT-CC)
+ M

>   US-CERT Bulletins (aka Cyber-Notes)
+ N


>   DoD IAVAs
+ I

>   NISCC
+ I

>   AUS-CERT
+ I

>   CIAC
+ I


> CNA Published Information
+ M (goes for all CNAs)

> Non-CNA Vendor Advisories
+ M (all major software vendors)
 
>   Suse
+ M

>   Mandriva
+ I (not that popular anymore)

>   HP-UX
+ M (HP in general)

>   SCO
+ I (not very active anymore)

>   AIX
+ M (IBM in general)

>   Cisco IOS
+ M (Cisco in general)

>   Free BSD
+ M

>   Open BSD
+ M

>   Net BSD
+ N

>   Gentoo (Linux)
+ I (not very active anymore)

>   Ubuntu (Linux)
+ N

> 
> 
> Mailing Lists & VDBs
>   Bugtraq
+ M

>   Vuln-Watch
+ I

>   VulnDev
+ I

>   Full Disclosure
+ N (from a CVE perspective the noise ratio is too high to consider it "must have" - most relevant info is also sent to bugtraq and if not then it will still be caught by the VDBs and can be spotted there).

>   Security Focus
+ M (I'm a bit between "must have" and "nice to have" since the publicly available info doesn't really provide anything not already available from Secunia and OSVDB; leaning towards "must have" as some still seem to find it useful).

>   Security Tracker
+ I

>   OSVDB
+ M (focuses a lot on covering "everything" including unstable software (not covered by Secunia) and old, historic issues that do not affect later version (partially covered by Secunia) - it's, therefore, a nice complement to Secunia).

>   ISS X-Force
+ N (primarily due to their coverage of IBM vulnerabilities)

>   FRSIRT/VUPEN
+ I (pretty much dead, random coverage, and provides no info not already available elsewhere (just links to various resources now))

>   Secunia
+ M (obviously! ;-) Our verification process daily results in extra details being added to advisories not available in the original vulnerability reports. Secunia is also a CNA (CVEs are assigned for internally discovered vulnerabilities and vulnerabilities coordinated on behalf of external researchers) and original source of a lot of vulnerability reports[1]).

[1]: http://secunia.com/community/research/

 
>   Packet Storm
+ N (most of it is available on exploit-db.com, which I personally find to be a better source)

> Exploit-DB.com
+ M

>   SecuriTeam
+ I

>   SANS Mailing List (Qualys)
+ I

>   Neohapsis (Security Threat Watch)
+ I

> Metasploit
+ I (great project but not that useful from a CVE perspective as it's seldom an original source)

> Snort
+ I

> Contagiodump.blogspot.com
+ N

> Oss-security
+ M


> Additions....
> APSA / APSB - Adobe
+ M

> ZDI
+ N (original source for a lot of reports, but information will also be available e.g. on monitored mailing lists)

> MSVR - Microsoft Vulnerability Research Advisories
+ N

> iDefense
+ N

> VMSA (Vmware Security Advisories)
+ M

> CNVD (China National Vulnerability Database)
+ N

> JVN
+ N



-- 

Med venlig hilsen / Kind regards


Carsten H. Eiram
Chief Security Specialist

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